Author Topic: Tour de France 2020  (Read 2183 times)

paultb

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Tour de France 2020
« on: August 08, 2020, 04:11:45 PM »
It looks like the Tour de France will go through at the end of the month. In this topic we can discuss everything related to the Tour de France.

If have already seen big names that will participate: Dumoulin, Roglic, Bernal, Kruijswijk, Froome, Thomas, Quintana, Miguel Ángel López, Pinot, Pogacar, Alaphilippe, A. Yates, Landa, Sagan, Ewan, Viviani and Barguil.

Based on this list it looks like the Tour GC will become a big battle between Jumbo-Visma and Ineos. I hope the Tour will become just as exiting as last year. But does anyone know when the teams have to submit their final selection for the Tour de France?

Vos

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2020, 11:48:54 PM »
There is already a topic where everyone can talk about everything in real cycling ; the WCS 2020 topic.
Also very welcome there are CFF managers who for some reason* don't want to participate in the CFF League of WCS.
The more people who post something about real cycling, the more fun that topic will be. :)

*= it is very easy to participate, it is free, it is fun, and it costs almost no time. How to participate ? :
https://cyclingforfun.org/smf/index.php?topic=591.msg17932#msg17932

The CFF League of the Tour de France is already open to join for a week or so. 20 days and 11 hours left to participate.
There you see also the names who will participate, including the many mutations.
For sure there will be last minute mutations, always the case, and in this special 2020 calendar even more the case, I assume.
Of course it is not sure yet if the Tour de France will go on, it depends on the Corona situation,
but for now it looks good and probably a good chance it will start in 3 weeks.

it looks like the Tour GC will become a big battle between Jumbo-Visma and Ineos.
Both teams are already battling eachother right now in the Tour de l'Ain :
https://cyclingforfun.org/smf/index.php?topic=591.msg22834#msg22834

And tomorrow it will be very interesting in final stage 3, because that stage is almost the same as a decisive Tour de France stage.
At the moment it is clear who is the best of both teams, although Bernal is doing very well already.
But this battle does not have to mean much,
also not in the next little tour, the Dauphiné ( starts in 3½ days, CFF League is open to join ),
because after the Dauphiné, Ineos and Jumbo-Visma will go on altitude training camp as preparation for the Tour de France.

But does anyone know when the teams have to submit their final selection for the Tour de France?
This information must be somewhere on the internet.
I have a vague memory it is 24 hours before the cyclists officially have to register in the team presentation.
And that team presentation is the evening before stage 1.
So the answer to your question can be something between 36 or 48 hours before stage 1.
But I can remember this wrong, for sure a possibillity.
A long time ago I read that this time limit has exceptions, for example if a Aso-doctor officially confirms a last minute injury of a cyclist.
And maybe the time limit is shorter now because of the special circumstances in this 2020 cycling calendar.

paultb

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 11:49:07 AM »
I hadn't read that topic, but it looks really active with prediction of even small Tours like Sibiu in Romania. Maybe I will join for the Tour de France (a few days too late for MSR 8).

Maybe we can keep this topic open to talk about the Tour de France? And keep your topic for the WCS game?

Vos

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 12:50:54 PM »
It would be great if you join the cycling for fun league in WCS, Paul. :)

I like it when there are many posts (also about the TdF) in the WCS topic, sometimes that topic even looks like a monologue or so. :(
And it was my intention when we started that topic years ago, that it would be a very active topic with all kinds of real cycling posts.

But it is fine by me if this topic is to talk about the Tour de France too.
I like real cycling, and especially I like to talk about TdF, it does not matter much to me in what topic that is, I will find it. :)
Just this note ; we had topics about the TdF and the Vuelta before, and not much participation/activity. Maybe because of the summer time.
Only a few times (years ago) that Thorin organized a TdF (and Vuelta) prediction game, there was an active topic,
but just once it was active for the whole TdF.
Besides summertime and holidays, also a reason could be that people have other sources to talk about the TdF ( for example chat ).

Don't get me wrong, I like your initiative a lot 8), Paul, and hopefully it will be an active TdF topic.
Enough to preview and to talk about ; most likely it will be a very interesting and exciting Tour de France between the 2 richest teams.
And as in every Tour de France, many other exciting, unexpected and amazing things will happen.
( if Corona does not mess things up and the TdF 2020 will go ahead within 3 weeks )

Vos

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2020, 08:45:26 AM »


Join the cycling for fun league in WCS, and win the Tour de France! 8)
It is free and costs almost no time. Select 15 cyclists and predict the winners of each ranking.
How to join ?
https://cyclingforfun.org/smf/index.php?topic=591.msg17932#msg17932

Good luck !  :)

Combuijs

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2020, 01:50:49 PM »
Quote
The new GC leader is A.Yates, because Alaphilippe received a 20sec. time penalty for taking a drink bottle within the final 20km (at 17km).
To me this seems like a too harsh punishment.
In my opinion ; a better penalty is that he has to sing a stupid song on the podium, in this way he does not break this rule the next time.
And who invented this rule (and distance) anyway and why ?

Absolutely don't agree. This is one of the few safety measures that actually work. The peleton in the last 20 kms of a sprint stage is very hectic already, and if every rider gets a bottle from his team, it will be a complete mess and things are going to be very dangerous. Further, it prevents the "glued drink bottle"-tactics by break-away riders. So this is a sensible rule.

Distance is determined by stage type and weather. In mountain stages and hot sunny weather the distance is shorter.

Singing a stupid song: I don't know about Alaphilippe's singing qualities, but in general that would be torture for the audience, not for the rider...

Actually, any other penalty than seconds (money etc.) is not effective and is received with a big smile.

In short, a good rule and a good penalty. But indeed sad to see him lose the yellow jersey this way.

Vos

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2020, 09:12:45 AM »
Ok, thanks for your reply. Maybe in contrast to some readers think after reading my text, I really like your reply.
The first time I heard about this rule. And it makes a bit (/partially) sense it is a safety rule. But the distance of 20km is a lot.
According to me this specific subject is debatable, but I will not go into that right now because probably it makes my reply too complicated.
And missing the point I was making with my text :

You bring up money as other penalty and I totally agree with you that this is not effective.
Indeed, they laugh about a money penalty, and sometimes not because they do not even realize they had a penalty.
But I disagree with your statement that any other penalty is not effective, besides seconds.
For most cyclists the seconds penalty is not effective at all, they really don't care that they are 20 seconds more behind.
In fact, in the current situation that penalty of 20 seconds can even be an advantage for a cyclist the next stage,
because now he has more chance to be in the break away group, he is 20 seconds less threat for the GC.

So, for most cyclist this penalty is not effective at all, and for some it is even advantage.
But when 17km before the finishline the GC leader makes this stupid mistake that was not really a hazard to himself or others,
he gets punished by taking away his yellow jersey.
Again ; to me this seems like a too harsh punishment.

More fair and better is a penalty that is for all cyclists a realization that they broke a rule, and for a safety rule it is even more important that a penalty is effective, to prevent it of happening again and even more important, it is clear to everyone not to break this rule.
My penalty sounds funny but is effective to everyone, and yes, it can be a torture for the audience. But more likely the audience will enjoy it in a laughing way if Alaphilippe has to learn a BZN song and sing that on the podium.
But perhaps you are a BZN fan, and you don't think Alaphilippe will experience this as torture. ;)
Anyway, my point is ; he for sure will not brake this rule again after singing that BZN song.
Of course, taking his yellow jersey is also an effective punishment.
But why is the GC leader hard punished, while most cyclists who make the same stupid mistake, are not punished at all by those 20 seconds.

Another creative penalty can be that someone who breaks this rule, has to wear donkey ears on his helmet the next stage.
An effective penalty for all, and not a situation that a penalty is very hash for the GC riders but not at all effective for the majority of cyclists.
And those donkey ears are not good for the aerodynamics, so it takes a little bit more energy for that punished cyclist.

But it is not about the punishment itself, the penalty should be focussed on that everyone realizes not to break this rule.
So maybe you can think of other creative solutions that are effective, time(besides GC riders)- and money penalties are often not effective.

Some want to introduce a yellow-red-cards system, maybe that is a better solution, more fair and more effective penalty.
It is all not so difficult, because a safety rule is in the interest of the cyclists themselves, and with introducing a safety rule, it is important there is a safety awareness. Now it is all about the rule, that is not good, the spirit why the rule excists is more important, also it is more important that everyone understands it / the safety awareness. Safety should be priority 1 and the rule itself priority 2.
And in this specific situation it even seems the penalty of the rule is the priority, what maybe can cause that cyclists might think this safety rule does not really apply to them because they are no GC riders.
A safety rule should also be simple to be effective, and not different in every stage. But this aside.
The awareness of this safety rule is not good because a lot of things went wrong with this dumm mistake of Alaphilippe 17km before the finishline ;
he did not realize he broke a rule, the one of his team who was giving him the drink bottle did not realize it, including hiss boss, and all the colleagues of Alaphilippe did not warn them not to break this rule. Even the Tour de France organisation should warn such a drink bottle giver that he is on the wrong spot and that he could break a safety rule. And before it happens, now there is no prevention (very important with a safety rule), just a repressive too harsh penalty for the GC leader, ánd in my opinion and no problem if you absolutely don't agree. To be clear ; my text shows that it is about the penalty and not about the rule, the only thing I mentioned about the rule is because I never heard of this rule. I was not being sarcastic with my last remark/question. I really wondered why, who and how this rule was invented, to me clear it is invented by people who underestimate a penalty system for a safety rule. Penalties and the Tour de France oragnisation ; the past showed many examples this is not a good combination. Sometimes even the nationality of a cyclist had influence on the penalty that was given, and maybe that improved now because Alaphilippe is French. Although it this case it is obvious, and they had to give this in my opinion weird standard penalty.

And I absoluty disagree that a weird penalty is justified because it is according to you a safety measure that actually work.
This last sentence is of course not a good reply, because in this way I miss the point you make. I think you were missing also a little bit the point I was making with my comment that it seemed to me a too harsh punishment, but I do appreciate your reply a lot.

I just disagree with your conclusion ;

A good rule ? Yes, but would it also be a good rule when in this specific stage the distance was 16km ?
And I think this rule is debatable, for example why invent a rule to maintain a traditional dangerous situation in all other kilometers,
to me it is strange the human factor is still of big influence, and therefore a bigger chance it goes wrong when grabbing a drink bottle.
It seems to me easy to invent something that there is only one human involved (the cyclist) instead of two humans.
And why not a seperate parralel road in order to grab food bags or drink bottles, then no hazard for the peleton.
Very easy to create this.
In CycloCross the changes of bikes is also in a parralel dirtroad and not on the race track, to prevent dangerous situations.
And this subject can be in many more ways debatable and who decides the distance anyway ? The distance is always debatable.
Also unclear to me if a cyclist is allowed to take a water bottle of the public just to cool him down and he is not drinking the bottle.
With 40 degrees and a final 1km climb of 15%, but the rule is 2km, well, only the GC riders get really punished if this is forbidden.

A good penalty ? Here I disagree with you as this long text shows, it seems to me a too harsh punishment for in this case the GC leader, and not a punishment at all for most other cyclists when they also make a dumm mistake 17km before the finish, that was no hazard to himslf or others in a boring stage with a slow pace at that 17km point in the race.
And maybe "ADHD"Alaphillipe was not even thirsty, but saw just an activity he could do with taking that drink bottle.
Ups, there goes his yellow jersey, while for others who make the same dumm mistake, the penalty is not harsh at all.
In short (and again) ; to me this seems like a too harsh punishment.

Vos

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2020, 09:30:38 AM »
To be more clear and to avoid some replies who explain my previous reply in a way I don't agree with at all ;
This rule and this penalty excists ; in my opinion, of course Alaphilippe should get that penalty in the current situation.
That in my opinion this penalty is too harsh, has nothing to do with that.
I would disagree if Alaphilippe did not get this penalty, even with the consequense he loses the yellow jersey.
But I disagree with the current situation what means that this subject can be improved for a next Tour de France.
Don't be surprised to see cyclists singing BZN songs with donkey ears on their helmet in the TdF of 2021.  :))

Vos

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2020, 09:38:15 AM »
And what about the red-yellow-card system that he media is talking about a lot recently ?
I don't have an opinion about this yet, to me not clear what the advantages and disadvantes will be.
Maybe interesting to start a debat about this subject in this topic.

Also interesting for this topic is ; if someone can post an overview of all the weird rules in road cycling.  :)

And what about Degenkolb who is out of the Tour de France after being outside the time limit in that weird, dangerous stage 1 ?
Maybe there are different opinions about this subject too.

Aurora Australis

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2020, 10:53:15 AM »
The first time I heard about this rule. And it makes a bit (/partially) sense it is a safety rule. But the distance of 20km is a lot.
It's been a rule for some years, Yates was penalised it a few years ago while challenging for yellow.  As mentioned, within 20kms in flat areas, which is necessary because teams are starting to set up for the sprint.  It's 10kms on mountain stages, or less in hot weather.

The Degenkolb thing is unfair for the sole reason that they make different decisions based on who is is.  They love Sagan, so he doesn't get into trouble for blatant cheating (ie taking a 500 metre shortcut through a town square when the field was strung out because he wanted to be at the front (that same week an Aussie was kicked out when spectators went on the road & he had to go behind them to not crash, costing him many placings - apparently that was taking an unfair advantage, but Sagan wasn't).

The sport is corrupt & without credibility.

Vos

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Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2020, 10:39:33 AM »
It seems Pinot is determined to finish the Tour, despite his back problem due to a crash in stage 1,
and despite he lost many minutes in the first real mountain stage of yesterday what means his GC is definitely over.
But let's see how he will do today in the 2nd Pyrenees stage, hopefully he will not be on the list below.
Most likely this abandonments list will be longer after today, even without Pinot on it.

Abandonments Tour de France 2020 :

Stage 1 :
John Degenkolb (Ger) Lotto-Soudal. Reason: Finished outside the time limit

Stage 2 :
Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Lotto-Soudal. Reason: DNS due to broken knee-cap
Rafael Valls (Esp) Bahrain-McLaren. Reason: DNS due to broken femur

Stage 3 :
Anthony Perez (Fra) Cofidis. Reason: DNF due to broken collarbone
extra unfortunate because he was successfully battling for the mountain jersey in this stage

Stages 4, 5, 6 and 7 : no abandonments

Stage 8 :
Giacomo Nizzolo (Ita) NTT Pro Cycling. Reason: DNF due to knee injury.
Diego Rosa (Ita) Arkéa-Samsic. Reason: DNF due to broken collarbone suffered in crash.
Lilian Calmejane (Fra) Total Direct Energie. Reason: Unknown
William Bonnet (Fra) Groupama-FDJ. Reason: DNF due to injury suffered on stage one.