[English] - Suggestions

[Aurora Australis]

If it's still up for discussion, I'd like to argue the case for no change.

[oscacom]

Only proposed

[Rico]

Hi Oska,

I really like the updates of the training camp icons and the 2 new WC races! This will make starting a flat-cobbles or sprint-hills generation a lot more intereseting and will bring a bit more balance in the game.

I'm doubtful about the variable talent for 2 reasons:
- It will create a big imbalance in favour of 24+ aged riders who have trained for lots of season with talent 5 and this effect will be there for quite a few seasons.
- I'm a numbers guy and I like this game because it pays off to plan ahead for quite a long time. This will disappear with the variable talent and it will be more of a casino game, which I don't really like.

Thanks for thinking about the future of the game and implementing changes though, even when I don't like all of them!

Edit: Like other managers point out below, the variable talent and variable age at which riders start to drop are changes big enough to need time to come into effect. I would suggest introducing both of them with the 19 yr olds that come into play next season when it is decided these changes are final.

[Sjiz]

For me its the same: switching talent per season will not be a good change for me. If talent has too much influence i would sooner suggest to remove a few levels and have the maximum bonus on +15% or something. This way its harder to calculate, has less influence but is still fixed.

I am very much in favour of changing the Age where riders start to get worse.

As always: thanks

[Vos]

Today I added some suggestions I have in my notepad and I uploaded to the server.

Most are minor updates, some internals to quit messages, supporters notifications, processes with less loading time ...

Now in team page you can see cyclists in training camp , free market now give 100 results, status order is changed.

2 new Road World Championship races have been added , Leeds-Harrogate a hills-sprint race and Ritchmond a fully cobbles plain race. Hamilton won't be more in WC calendar due two same races are in WC locations as Salzburg and Lisboa.

And I started in chat a discussion due I give some internal changes to change 2 important things in the game.
As always, these changes have players that agree and others than disagree and it's not easy for me, I will study these changes more time, reading all you.

1st change- talent will change at end of every season +1 or -1 .
2nd change Age where cyclists start to loss skills will be random 30 to 34 (or 31-34 or 29-35...) not fixed . Some cyclists can mantain his level some years .

Nice changes you made, Oska, including more variation in the WC road race.

About the 2 changes ( I made them bold ) which are in discussion ;
I wonder what the arguments are that these are good changes for CFF ?
I have a vague idea why, but since this is discussed already and being discussed here, it is nice to know what the arguments are.

In my opinion ( for now ) ;

about the 1st change = What does this mean exactly ?
As I read it know, a 19yo has the first season talent rating 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 ;
and at their 20yo birthday they will have talent rating 1 or  talent rating -1 for the rest of their career ?
So this could be +3% trainingspeed or -3% trainingspeed ( if talent rating 1 is 3% but I forgot what percentage talent rating 1 gets ).

Besides that I don't know exactly what this 1st change implies ;
I see one problem that is already mentioned by Rico ( and Sjiz ).
For example I have 3 very young training projects ( 1x 20yo and 2x 21yo, including a free cyclist that I cannot sell ),
and they look to me as promising talents right now, but when this change already happens after this season ;
they're much less promising because they cannot profit of the talent rating bonus, and all generations above them had that advantage.

I have just 3 young talents, but for teams that train a full team of very young talents for some months already ;
no doubt they have invested in their talents based on a high talent rating, but that base is gone with this change,
plus the fact that their talents then will have a big disadvantage compared to all generations above them.
So, I can imagine this change will be very dissapointing to teams full of young talents.
Maybe a good idea if this change will happen ;
that it will not happen after this season already, but after 3 seasons to avoid this big dissapointment.

About this 1st change ; I wonder what the arguments are ?

Perhaps also good to mention = I'm not complaining ; I like changes that are beneficial to the CFF game. 
Even no problem if this creates a bad situation to my 3 young training projects, and also it would mean to me a waste of a free cyclist.
My situation is nothing compared to teams full of very young talents ; I assume they will not like this change at all, if it is applied soon.

about the 2nd change = No problem for me to adapt to this situation. I like variaty in the game, so probably I will like this change.
Also about the 2nd change ; I wonder what the arguments are ?

[ophiuko]

Hi, I'm very happy that some changes are going to happen finally. Great to hear about the new stages. I'm just going to give my opinion about the big changes proposed:

1st change - variable talent: I think it's better in terms of similarity to real cycling. With respect to the dynamics of the game, I think it will favour those that don't calculate talent than the ones who do. Also, manager will pay more for a 19yo because there will be less risk of having a low talent forever (even if it's low, it can increase later).
It's important to clarify whether the variability will be +1/0/-1 each season, or just +1/-1. This is very important, because with the +1/0/-1 system, a rider can still be talent 5 during the whole under24 training, meanwhile with +1/-1 the maximum will be 5-4-5-4-5. In this way, it will also be important to know what are the chances of a talent 5 to change. Will it be 50% no change - 50% decrease to talent 4? Or 66.7% no change - 33.3% decrease to talent 4?
I like this change, but to me is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to annouce (in game) details about this changes in advance (at least 2-3 seasons), so everyone knows in advance and are able to plan accordingly.

2nd change - decreasing start age: again, it's a great idea to make the game more similar to reality. But in the game now is quite clear that some type of riders, specially grand tourers and those terrains which include many different skills, usually cannot start winning until 27-28 yo due to the big differences in training from 24yo to 30yo. If the decreasing starts at 29 or 30yo, this will give a very short winning life of those riders. For that reason, I would not go lower than 31yo for the decreasing start age, so all the riders can have at least 3-4 years of winning chances. In my opinion, 31-35 would be the best option.

Now that some changes can be made, it would also like to stress out a couple of needed changes of great importance to me:

-There is no competition at all in 3rd div and many managers are using it as a way to make huge amounts of money meanwhile training new generations (some of them even until 26yo of their riders). I think this is not good for the game, relegation should be a punishment, not a reward. It could be solved by reducing the number of groups in 3rd division, so it is harder to promote again and prizes will be lower due to the bigger competition. I know this change it's not easy, probably not possible, so another option would be reducing considerably the prizes in 3rd div.

-I think we all know that the game interface is quite obsolete now and that an improvement in these terms (interface renewal of the website - real mobile app) would increase a lot the number of users in the game. I know this is practically impossible to achieve, but I wanted to mention just to be considered. Another thing that could increase substantially the number of users would be the activity in social media. Right now it's almost 0, and I know there are people in the chat willing to take over the social media accounts to try to bring new users. Maybe you could give a chance on this, Oska.

I wonder what the arguments are of the persons who discussed this in a (Spanish ?) chat group.

Vos, about the variable talent, some managers have been discussing and claiming it to be a great change, because they don't like that a rider can be predicted to 24yo with maximum accuracy. I agree with the change not because I don't like the predictions (actually it was me who made the prediction tool), but because it makes the game more similar to real cycling.

About the decreasing start age, I didn't see anyone talking about it in the chat. So it must be something that Oska just made up himself, but it is a great idea.

[Combuijs]

Nice to see changes for the World Championship, I really like that, makes the game more balanced.

1st change: talent will change at the end of every season +1 or -1
Hmm, it reflects real life more, when a very talented rider in the end is not the talent he promised to be and the other way round. So it might be a good change, makes development less predictable.
Some questions:
Will it always be -1 or 1 or is 0 also a possibility? Having the 0 option would make more sense in my opinion.
Is there a min and max limit to talent? Will it always be 0 to 5, or are for instance -3 and 8 also possibilities? If 0-5 then the last generation trained without talent changes and talent 5 will have a big advantage for a while, so I don't like that. If talent < 0 or talent > 5 is possible then there is the danger that there are a few superstars in the game, dominating the races, which I also don't like. So a balanced implementation looks a problem to me.

2nd change: start losing skills at a random age.
That reflects real life more, so it might be a good change, it makes the game less predictable. In combination with the first change there is the chance that huge talent (>5 if possible) in combination with late eldering age can create a very old competitive rider. That would make way for the Chris Horner milestone, winning a grand tour at the age of 41... I like this second change better than the first one.

[Vos]

Good to read these reactions. 
I guess my point of view on the debatable first change is a bit different to how Ophiuko and Combuijs explain it.
It is still not exactly clear to me.
But I like almost every change that makes this game more variable / more unpredictable ( and more like real cycling ).

I just think of this now ; such changes are beneficial to me / managers who play like me.
I play on gut-feeling because I'm too lazy to calculate in this game, just sometimes I do that, mostly even for other managers.
My own opinion ; to calculate a lot takes a bit the fun out of the game to me/ a bit a waste of time, I rather waste time to the CFF League.^^
But I can imagine many others like this calculating aspect of the game. So far CFF is a great game for both types of managers,
because even such a "dumb/not calculating" manager like me, was 1A champion once.

Also I think of this right now ;
The first debatable change can cause that is less interesting to start a youth team for the next 6 seasons or so.
But maybe this thought is wrong, because it seems my point of view on the first debatable change is not correct.
Almost always Ophiuko and Combuijs have better points of view when it comes to CFF stuff like this, so, interesting to read.

[Franky]

For me, just seeing Oska doing changes, it is always a good thing! The game is alive!!

About the proposals...honestly, I don't care too much, we will adapt to those changes hehe, and if the changes are not good in a long term, we will change them again!

[wacco]

Like Franky said.

We are humans and we do not like change. Change means we need to learn something new. Give a change some seasons a chance, if not liked change it back. Ok maybe some unfair competition but even more satisfying if your rider ends up as a good rider.

No one mentioned it but I hope if there are changes they are well explained and just implemented with a total reset of the game.

[oscacom]

Only was 2 suggestions I readed in this forum.

NO GAME RESET , WE ONLY RESET BECAUSE TO ADD THIS CALENDAR AND TRAINING WAS IMPOSSIBLE WITH OLD GAME.

Before changes I need read options and your reactions. If I'm not sure it's for better I won't change anything.

The option about talent was at end of season = +1 or -1 ( 50% equal, 25% +1, 25% -1), if you have 5 ( 75% equal , 25% -1). 0 talent (75% = , 25%+1).

About age to decrease I think we can mantain 31 as minimum and we can add until 34. Example 50% 31, 30% 32, 15% 33, 5% 34).

In calendar I will try add some stages, not too many because when you add a stage you decrease options to other terrains, for this I only will add if I think a new stage is useful to get a better fight in the game.
Some tours have their own identity ( cobbles in Binkbank, no mountain in Down Under, mountain and hills in Basque Country...)but we can introduce some stages in any tour to improve the game.

In Time Trial I think maybe random factor is high and difference is low, maybe I give more value to Global Value , effort and maybe any bonus. I have to study this engine a lot again.

[Davilo07]

I am all in for both changes. That amount of variability and surprise would make the game something "more alive". At this moment, once you know the talent of the rider, you can calculate how is going to be with 24-28 or 32 years old with barely any error. and that in my opinion is a bit boring. Then you just need to stick to a training schedule and voila, your rider is fully cooked at perfection with the perfect age.

 With these two changes, you'll have that change and variability, you'll need to check year after year the talent of the rider to readjust trainings... It adds a complete new layer of possibilities to the game in my opinion.

And then the variable decrease age, the same. It would make that riders would start to compete sooner just in case mine would be not usable by the age of 31yo. Or it could happen all the opposite and could keep compiting up to the age of 35 or older.

These 2 changes are more than welcome by me. And it is what many people have been asking: more variability in the game and new challenges.

And just to let you know I have just started a new generation this year so I am by far one of the person's who is not going gain any advantage of this new situation.

I don't think we need a full reset for implementing these changes, but I wouldn't be against it if osca considers it necessary.

[pipinata]

Today I added some suggestions I have in my notepad and I uploaded to the server.

Most are minor updates, some internals to quit messages, supporters notifications, processes with less loading time ...

Now in team page you can see cyclists in training camp , free market now give 100 results, status order is changed.

2 new Road World Championship races have been added , Leeds-Harrogate a hills-sprint race and Ritchmond a fully cobbles plain race. Hamilton won't be more in WC calendar due two same races are in WC locations as Salzburg and Lisboa.

And I started in chat a discussion due I give some internal changes to change 2 important things in the game.
As always, these changes have players that agree and others than disagree and it's not easy for me, I will study these changes more time, reading all you.

1st change- talent will change at end of every season +1 or -1 .
2nd change Age where cyclists start to loss skills will be random 30 to 34 (or 31-34 or 29-35...) not fixed . Some cyclists can mantain his level some years .

Hi Osca,

Ophikuo has some good data about the age of the riders that win the races. In mean, this riders are 28 years old, +-1.

To star to age the riders too soon (29 y.o) seem way premature. If you finally decide to implement this idea of random aging, I would suggest to keep it for older riders, from 31 years old+. Otherwise, you could be training a rider for quite a long time and only fully benefit from him for 1-2 seasons.

It is nice to hear that you are active and willing to implement some changes

[pipinata]

Hi Oska,

I really like the updates of the training camp icons and the 2 new WC races! This will make starting a flat-cobbles or sprint-hills generation a lot more intereseting and will bring a bit more balance in the game.

I'm doubtful about the variable talent for 2 reasons:
- It will create a big imbalance in favour of 24+ aged riders who have trained for lots of season with talent 5 and this effect will be there for quite a few seasons.
- I'm a numbers guy and I like this game because it pays off to plan ahead for quite a long time. This will disappear with the variable talent and it will be more of a casino game, which I don't really like.

Thanks for thinking about the future of the game and implementing changes though, even when I don't like all of them!

Edit: Like other managers point out below, the variable talent and variable age at which riders start to drop are changes big enough to need time to come into effect. I would suggest introducing both of them with the 19 yr olds that come into play next season when it is decided these changes are final.

A possibilty could be to wait until that current 19 yo riders are 31. After that, "close" this version of cff and start a new cff with all the suggested modifications.

This would be the more fair way for everybody. The drawback is that this would be in 500 days or so.

[Davilo07]

Only was 2 suggestions I readed in this forum.

NO GAME RESET , WE ONLY RESET BECAUSE TO ADD THIS CALENDAR AND TRAINING WAS IMPOSSIBLE WITH OLD GAME.

Before changes I need read options and your reactions. If I'm not sure it's for better I won't change anything.

The option about talent was at end of season = +1 or -1 ( 50% equal, 25% +1, 25% -1), if you have 5 ( 75% equal , 25% -1). 0 talent (75% = , 25%+1).

About age to decrease I think we can mantain 31 as minimum and we can add until 34. Example 50% 31, 30% 32, 15% 33, 5% 34).

In calendar I will try add some stages, not too many because when you add a stage you decrease options to other terrains, for this I only will add if I think a new stage is useful to get a better fight in the game.
Some tours have their own identity ( cobbles in Binkbank, no mountain in Down Under, mountain and hills in Basque Country...)but we can introduce some stages in any tour to improve the game.

In Time Trial I think maybe random factor is high and difference is low, maybe I give more value to Global Value , effort and maybe any bonus. I have to study this engine a lot again.

.

From lemarche #mesqueunteam we want to publicly support both new ideas and changes. The "random ageing" I like the original idea that could happen from 29yo. But better this than nothing.
And I support the idea of the sooner the better, waiting one year and a half for a probability of a change in the talent of a rider seems toooooo long for me.