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English Cff Forum => General Forum => Topic started by: Aurora Australis on October 03, 2019, 11:01:43 AM
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With TeaMetal being the current god team of TT, and remaining in the red zone of Div1 through the season, the thought came to mind yet again, whether there's some team specialities that make it (almost) impossible to retain in Division 1.
Here's the record for this season's best specialised teams.
** TT **
TeaMetal - relegation
Facha_Bartolo - retain with 350 buffer, but only because of 1k points from non-TTers
** Sprint **
IntellinetCyclingFF - relegation, probably too far behind even if road WC was the sprint race.
** Cobbles **
Cabrasverdes - relegation
Zatarra - retain with 500 buffer, but only because of 1k points from non-cobblers
SentinelChickens - retain with 1370 buffer, with 1300 from non-cobblers, and a combination on cobblers & hill-cobblers.
** Hills **
no specialist hills teams in Div 1 this season.
Surprisingly, the combination cobblers with hill-cobblers did scrape there, and the scrapping over with cobbles & hill cobbers is also barely achieved again with CobbleCrushers's (around 4700 from cob & hill-cob - for 29th); however that's the absolute best, and the top TT & sprint specialist teams in the game failed to retain. So the question is, are some team specialities impossible to retain in Div 1, and does this mean the best cyclists in these fields will forever be in the 2nd division?
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If you have 20 riders of the same specialization you would never promote to division 1. So why should you be able to stay in division 1 with the same team?
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The teams you are mentioned in your first post aren't team that specialize in just one skill. They have max 8 or 9 riders of they same skill and the other riders they have just aren't strong enough to keep them in the division
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With TeaMetal being the current god team of TT
???
last world championship (flat) timetrial:
ChessPower: 540 points
Aurora_Australis: 530 points
Teametal: 300 points
who is your god? :-*
PS:
last timetrial-hills:
Aurora_Australis: 605 points
ChessPower: 230 points
Teametal: 120 points
this last seasons has only 5 flat time trials, the season 5 will have 10 ;) with x2 points, Teametal could be top 15
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With TeaMetal being the current god team of TT
???
last world championship (flat) timetrial:
ChessPower: 540 points
Aurora_Australis: 530 points
Teametal: 300 points
who is your god? :-*
PS:
last timetrial-hills:
Aurora_Australis: 605 points
ChessPower: 230 points
Teametal: 120 points
this last seasons has only 5 flat time trials, the season 5 will have 10 ;) with x2 points, Teametal could be top 15
TeaMetal was in 1st Division, noob.
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but he is not the current god team of TT :P
I understand that the "current god" is the team with the best cyclists.
And... teametal will be in 2nd in a few hours :)
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but he is not the current god team of TT :P
I understand that the "current god" is the team with the best cyclists.
And... teametal will be in 2nd in a few hours :)
Then you should create another post called "I'm the GOD".
Aurora is talking about the teams who were competing in 1st division. And YES, TeaMetal was the TT GOD in 1st division.
Is also funny to see your post comparing your points in 2nd division with the points of TeaMetal in 1st division to explain why you are the God.
But of course, you are damafe, you're always right. So I'll just shut up.
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Is also funny to see your post comparing your points in 2nd division with the points of TeaMetal in 1st division to explain why you are the God.
you understood nothing :)
well... you never understand when you want to
last world championship (flat) timetrial:
ChessPower: 540 points
Aurora_Australis: 530 points
Teametal: 300 points
(https://www.cyclingforfun.org/cff/etapas/bredatt.jpg)
1 Denis Anderson 22 0: 00" 300 TeaMetal
2 Maximino Laguna 22 0: 04" 250 ChessPower
3 Anton Rozin 22 0: 07" 225 Pomilles_Balears
4 Benny Andresen 22 0: 07" 200 CC_Porco_Jones
5 Sergio Manuel Serrano 22 0: 09" 180 VILLESVENSKAS
6 Richard Levin 22 0: 10" 160 Aurora_Australis
7 Ben Mitchum 22 0: 13" 150 Aurora_Australis
8 Isaac Trump 22 0: 16" 140 Aurora_Australis
and so on...
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U forgot some teams, like Antequera(cobble, relegated); ProdopingPong(hills, 14th); maybe Codex(mountain-hills, 8th)
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To me it seems that it is very easy to decide which team is the God in TT.
Because the only fair condition for determining that = which team has the nr1 in the TT-list of the Dream Team ? :P :))
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climbing TT is not TT :P
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last world championship (flat) timetrial:
ChessPower: 540 points
Aurora_Australis: 530 points
Teametal: 300 points
This is referring to the NT race 4 Thorin. @Damafe, I'll point out that France didn't race (like you suffered in season 3 with Spain), and that would have massively changed the numbers. And head to head last season, TeaMetal's TTers beat mine when in the same division (except for one race - TeaMetal says it was because of poor health of cyclists).
U forgot some teams, like Antequera(cobble, relegated); ProdopingPong(hills, 14th); maybe Codex(mountain-hills, 8th)
Antequera's cobblers isn't the top cobblers or cobbler team, so there wasn't a point in mentioned it. ProdopingPong isn't a hill specialist team, and if you take out all of the others, the team would have around 2550 points, or relegation. Codex isn't a mountain-hills specialist team (top points are tour cyclists & also hiller), and a mountain team should be able to retain anyway so it wasn't looked at.
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Of course there are specialities that is harder to retain with than others. But, the game has always been like this.
If you look at ALL the top15 teams, all expect SentinelChickens (Cobbleteam) and to a certain degree (CobbleCrushers) have top riders in multiple categories.
What does it mean? To compete in the top you have to have top riders in all terrains.
Yes, maybe climbing/GC and cobble teams have a little advance to other specializations, but that is not something new.
And I think whatever pure specialization you have you will struggle to retain in 1.div.
You can see specialized team in Climb/GC also not be able to retain TeamRHB, Skunk, Turrones
And specialized cobble-teams Cabrasverdes.
Also last season great pure GC/Climbing teams relegated like Marcatone_Due and ValeronIdolo
In general I think we can say too stay in 1.div you actually have to be able to compete in more than one specialization (Unless you have Bauer), and I think that is just fair you should to compete and retain at highest level.
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I will happily admit damafe is the TT God if this will end this silly line of discussion.
Now back to the main topic
First just to clarify a few points:
France did not field any riders in the NT flat TT; Jobet would have taken a top 5 easily; Bejo probably would have scored some points as well (not many, and I am not 100% sure)
Second:
About staying in D1: I narrowly missed the 30th place because:
1. my team does not have enough enough power in hilly TT; Season 4 was heavily biased towards that
2. I did not want to burn the best TTers, so I sometimes fielded a non-maximal roster (i.e. - health not close to 100, or not the best riders)
3. My sprinters did not manage to score points, and I did not have time to investigate why my tactics sucked in sprint. They were probably out partying the night before :o
Remember that I got in D1 with TT and sprinters.
and third:
To answer the original poster's question: Is it possible to stay in D1 with one single specialty ?
Yes, it is possible, but the calendar has to suit your specialty. S5 would have been very easy for me; unfortunately, S4 was the opposite.
LE: maybe the chances of staying in Div1 are greater if you have depth in that single specialty; I mean - not only Flat TT, but also hills TT and climbing TT.
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So the question is, are some team specialities impossible to retain in Div 1, and does this mean the best cyclists in these fields will forever be in the 2nd division?
My previous post was a joke of course. :)
But this is for sure an interesting subject / discussion.
So, I will try to give real contribution although my opinion is just speculation and I'm not sure how this game/div.1A will develop.
For now my opinion is that it is possible to be in 1A with a specialized team.
However, as horace already pointed out ; it is highly dependent on a suited season calendar.
But I think it is enough to stay in 1A in every season when that specialized team has just a few other point-scoring top-cyclists.
A top GC rider (+helper) can be enough.
Or 2 other top specialists (+2 helpers) can be enough, for example a hills-specialist and a climb-hills specialist. Or other combi's.
There are a lot of points in the GC and in the classic races.
This takes some space in the specialized teams, and in this phase of the game they often chose for an almost full team of specialists.
But that is a (tactical) choice. It can be a choice also to have a less big team of specialists.
And if there is enough space in the team (besides the additional 2 or so topcyclists in another point-scoring specialty) ; also the trick of buying, immediately sending on TC, riding with TC and score points, and selling a.s.a.p. afterwards, so there will be space again to do this trick all over again with another cyclist.
In this way it is possible to stay in 1A with a specialized team.
Also you can anticipate on the new calendar of next season, that is already known before the Giro ends.
Enough time to make 1 really good and suited buy for that new season calendar.
By the way, teams who are specialized in TT ; they have the advantage that there always is a WC TT and that can mean a lot of points.
Although the TT in season 2 was not suited for flat-TT-specialists, but this is an exception and I assume that will not happen often.
To me it seems it is a tactical choice of the manager of a specialized team :
the choice of enough space in your team to stay in 1A, versus the choice to have a full team (and make a lot of money in that way).
And this final part (in parentheses) is important in my opinion, because the smart managers of specialized teams will make the decision to sell some riders when everyone is fully trained, in order to create space in their team to stay on the highest level. They will keep their best specialized riders of course, to go for glory in 1A.
And in my opinion there are also a lot of really smart managers ; they are already adjusting their specialized team before the age of 24 with other riders that benefit of the teamtraining, to get a real good allround team so that they can compete in the top of division 1A, but also go for glory in their original speciality.
It is also possible to do this when the specialized team is fully trained, maybe more expensive. But with selling a few good fully trained specialized riders (and of course you keep the best ones yourself), that gives a good amount of money that you can invest in 2 top cyclists of another specialty.
I'm planning to start a 19yo youth team in a speciality in one of the next seasons.
This is my intention, and I don't know if that plan will be realized so soon, but in CFF3 it is fun to start a 19yo youth team.
In contrast to CFF2, training took forever and the cyclists were just a few seasons on their peak. Also in this way CFF3 is a big improvement.
And when/if I start a 19yo specialized youth team, I have no worries at all that it is possible to stay in 1A for many seasons when they are fully trained. Before the age of 24, it is in my opinion impossible to stay in 1A with a youth team, but that will not be my goal, training them perfectly and prepare my team for 1A will be my main goal in the first 5 seasons.
Hopefully I'm not too positive :) that I have no worries at all to compete in 1A with a semi-specialized team.
And semi-specialized, because I don't see the "need" to compete with a team full of the same specialty. To me it is a weird choice to keep the too many cyclists of the same speciality. And besides that, in the future not a smart tactical choice. Although it is logical that this happens in this phase of the game when CFF3 is just started and nobody has a fully trained team.
I'm curious about other opinions / points of view, on this subject of the quoted question.
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Additional text ; I have to point out that just 30 teams will stay in 1A every season.
So besides my no worries, it will be a fierce (and fun !) battle in a lot of seasons (depending on the calendar / and the manager"skills").
And perhaps one (out of the 7 or so) season will be a failure, but immediatly promote again seems to me very likely.
So the question is, are some team specialities impossible to retain in Div 1, and does this mean the best cyclists in these fields will forever be in the 2nd division?
I'm curious about other opinions / points of view, on this subject of the quoted question.
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After the beta I thought it would be difficult to stay in 1a with only 1 kind of specialists, so I decided to combine a few. I started out with a mix of flat/cobble and hill/cobble racers and was going to decide which would be my main specialty after I saw some talents. Quite quickly it became clear that Yannick would be my main rider so I wrote down a cobble/hill training regime. At the end of the first season I sold 6 riders that didn't fit that schedule and bought some hillers. When my main talent would have been a flat/cobble racer I would have bought 6 sprinters that would fit the schedule.
Of course it was relatively easy to buy some hill talents after their first year, because there were a lot of riders with the same age available after the first season, so that will be more difficult in future generations. For now I'm lucky enough to have one of the better cobble/hill riders, some domestiques for him that can score some points, and also some hillers (bought after season 1) and flatcobblers that manage some results here and there. I even overpayed for some flatclimbers to diversify a bit more :-[
I think when you ride with a specialist team, you need one guy who is really one of the best in their field and apart from that you need a few others who are capable of getting some results in other parts of the season. That's where you have an advantage over the "big" teams that go for the overall classification. They will send their hillers on training camps for the hill classics because there they can get most points, but a specialist team might be able to set up training camps for other parts of the season as well depending on the calendar and in that way are able to achieve some good results with riders that would not be able to compete for top 10 when all other specialists are there.
Just some of my thoughts on this subject...
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I think i'ts fair that you need to complete your team if u want to be a 1st divission team.
I don't see any problem from this.
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Maximino Laguna 1648
Kaspar Elmholt 1316
Torben Bjerre 928
Higinio Espin 847
Kevin Santillana 633
Joe Robinson 601
Jesus Ramon Aranguren 422
+6000 points just with flat TTers :)
#yeswecan
next season will be more difficult because Aurora_Australis comes to first division, but i think that i can get 3000 points...
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This season was a flat TT paradise. Next one is a different beast - climb TT all the way. I am holding my opinion that you can survive in Division 1 with one single speciality in your team, if you are lucky and the calendar God is smiling upon you. But sooner or later the calendar will be not favouring you. So long term you need variety in your team 😉
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next season will be more difficult because Aurora_Australis comes to first division, but i think that i can get 3000 points...
My TTers aren't the biggest problem. It's that TeamEuroscalt is selling his TTers, which will make it harder for all TTers given that TTers will be spread across more Div1 teams, particularly teams more interested in racing them hard than coaxing their skills.