A report on Stores

[Kekipi]

If you've never bought a Store before, perhaps it's because when you investigated the possibility, you were presented with this warning:

YOU SHOULDN´T BUY STORES UNTIL YOU HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME PLAYING and your team scores good results in 1st division. You can also have stores in 2nd division when you are having great results (Winnings, General top5,....). EACH STORE HAS HIGH DAILY EXPENSES AND A LOT OF TEAMS HAVE ENDED UP IN BANKRUPTCY. ASK THE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS BEFORE BUYING IT.

Or maybe you have tried but experienced only mediocre (been there) or poor results.

Well it's true that buying a store can be a losing financial proposition, but I've found out that a team need not be getting "good results in [the] 1st division" nor necessarily getting "great results" in the 2nd division.   Money can be made, perhaps 1M+ in a season, even by a Div 3 team.

Here's some stats (a bonus for being a Supporter  ) from the "Higher Profits from Stores" category  --

1   Div 1, rank 3
2   Div 1, rank 1
3   Div 2, rank 1
4   Div 3, rank 1
5   Div 3, rank 1
6   Div 2, rank 3
7   Div 1, rank 2
8   Div 2, rank 3
9   Div 1, rank 5
10   Div 1, rank 7
11   Div 3, rank 2
12   Div 1, rank 24   
13   Div 3, rank 2
14   Div 2, rank 1
15   Div 2, rank 2
16   Div 2, rank 2
17   Div 3, rank 3
18   Div 2, rank 4
19   Div 2, rank 1
20   Div 1, rank 12

So two of the current top five most profitable teams from Stores (and five of the top twenty) are from Division 3.

Also in the Top 20 most profitable Stores are seven (7) teams from Division 1, including the two most profitable, and eight ( from Division 2.

Though I don't have a store in the current season (I'm in Div 2, rank 20+, and have a young-ish team of cobble-hillers in training) but if I'm ever relegated to Div 3, I will certainly take the plunge. 

[Vos]

Good informative text about stores, Kekipi.
According to me the biggest influences on the shops are these, and in this order :
1. very big influence = high ranking in the division ( as the schedule of Kekipi already shows ).
1. also very big influence = jerseys.
3. big influence = good GC results/victories.
4. good influence = good race results/victories.

Maybe also good to mention for not experienced managers ; the "help-feature" is accurate.
(not entirely accurate when you just won a race or a tour, the best is to check if a shop is profitable after the update of a not so good race)
The "help-feature" is the store icon on your stores page, and this text is mentioned on that page :

Click here* and you will see an estimation of today´s benefits that you would have in a store in the selected country.
The value can change daily depending on your results.
Make sure that your shop is profitable before opening it.
Checking this is free, do not worry.

  <---- click on this store icon* at the bottom of your stores page.

Money can be made, perhaps 1M+ in a season, even by a Div 3 team.

For sure true, and in the 3rd division it can be millions more if the results are great.
More money on stores can be made in the 3rd division than in the 2nd division, because in the 2nd div. the competition is better.

Also good to know ; the further in the season, the more profit a store makes.
In 1A it is difficult to make a profit on foreign stores. Most 1A teams have just one store of their own country.
Only the 1A topteams have 1 or more foreign stores, the ranking and jerseys are important.

For example my team is at the moment 4th in 1A, and only one foreign store is also profitable, so I have just 2 stores.
At the moment a total profit on stores of 321k.
In previous season my team finished as 7th and had just a profit of 121k on stores.
To compare ; when everyone started in the 3rd division ; I had 19 stores and made a netto profit of about 5M in one season.
And that was in an extreme good 3rd division compared to the current 3rd divisions.

Maybe not a good example to compare, because this is something only an experienced manager can do.
But I advised a few starting managers the past 1½year, so I know what is possible for beginners concerning stores.
Especially in the 3rd division the profit on stores was very big, and for sure / at least a few millions netto profit.

And this is something I know less good, but I estimate if you make 1 million netto profit in the 2nd division, you are doing well.
Of course for example the numbers 1 of the 2nd divisions are making much more netto profit if they open foreign stores at the right moment.
I estimate that for most other 2nd division managers with a foreign cyclist that is doing great,
that foreign store is profitable at almost halfway the season, not sooner, maybe even later.

edit ; of course, a foreign store is profitable when it makes more money than the investment of 150k.
For example I have another foreign store that has now a positive amount of 182,- per update,
but with just 14 updates left, it is for sure not worth to open it / it is not profitable with the investment of minus 150k.

[Combuijs]

To add to this:

Having a succesfull foreign rider will seriously improve the store of that rider's nationality.

I am second in division 2 now (nr 15 in kekipi's list...) and currently:
The national store (Dutch) is hugely profitable, 13K a day
The British store (two good riders) is seriously profitable, 1604
The Hungarian and American store (no riders at all) still have a profit of 441, though overall in the season it is a loss.

Number 24 in division 1, Cobblecrushers, has two very popular riders, Leonid Leonov and Yannick Pierre, which really makes a difference as you can see in kekipi'list.

[Vos]

Indeed, besides their victories and great results, also because the jerseys are of big influence.
They both have jerseys ; Pierre (Belgium) and Leonov (Ukraine + NT world champion).
Even the 3rd place of his team in previous season can count too, but that is a guess, I don't know if that applies too.
And perhaps that Leonov is the current nr1 in the ind.Ukrainian ranking counts too, but this is also a guess and perhaps it does not count.
The same for the individual ranking in 1A, no doubt Leonov was very high ranked in the first half of this season.
But again, I don't know what counts and what not. I never had a top cyclist like Leonov, so I cannot compare. 

I can remember the world championship jersey of Crouzel, the only time I had a foreign store with a positive number at the start of the season.
That jersey alone gave a bonus of a few thousend per update, I cannot remember how much, maybe 3k or even 5k per update.
And he wears that jersey the whole season, so it will not decrease what happens when a race victory is too long ago.

Perhaps also good to mention is that my Ukrainian foreign store is only profitable because I used a WC card open store for free.
So an investment of 0,- instead of 150k.
And I openend that shop right after the victory in Frankfurt of my Ukrainian cylist and before the next update.
He finished as 3rd GC in the Giro, also a good result that is of big influence, even more of influence than the EF victory.
But the Ukrainian shop makes 1.708,- per update now ( it was a little more many times before, somewhere a little over 2k ).
Well, let's assume the average profit was 2½k, probably it was less.
But from race 42 to race 91 = 48 updates, and that x 2½ = 120k netto profit.
So when I did not use that WC card open store for free, that Ukrainian shop was not even profitable, I would have lost 30k.

By the way, despite the current high 4th place ranking in 1A, the foreign stores without having a cyclist of that country = minus - 447,-
Making a netto profit on foreign stores is too difficult for most 1A managers.
With a few exceptions, mainly because of prices and jerseys, and of course excellent results/victories.
In the 2nd division it is easier, although you have to really battle for it, good results are needed.
In the 3rd division it is easy to make a big profit on stores, the difference in competition between 3rd div. and 2nd div. is huge.

[Kekipi]

In the 3rd division it is easy to make a big profit on stores, the difference in competition between 3rd div. and 2nd div. is huge.

Agreed.  I wish I had figured that out sooner but that's okay.

For me, the game is about enjoyment.  I've enjoyed having winning teams and winning riders, but in the process at times that meant more stress (and less enjoyment).

So I've found a new enjoyment in training riders and watching them progress (and making money--sometimes a lot!).  And in the process, there hasn't been a lot of winning, but that's okay because I still am enjoying myself (having a steadily increasing bank account has helped!).

Now I'm thinking of embarking on training up some riders for my national team (USA!).    I currently have a solid 23-yo cobble-hiller, Julian Finn, who's my first 10-star (cobbles), gold icon rider I've trained from "birth".   Exciting for me!

I may still stay on the cobble-hills training track but am considering others, perhaps cobbles or cobble-sprint.  Any advice?

Anyway, thanks for listening to my ramble. 

Stay healthy and safe, all.

[Vos]

If you've never bought a Store before, perhaps it's because when you investigated the possibility, you were presented with this warning:

YOU SHOULDN´T BUY STORES UNTIL YOU HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME PLAYING and your team scores good results in 1st division. You can also have stores in 2nd division when you are having great results (Winnings, General top5,....). EACH STORE HAS HIGH DAILY EXPENSES AND A LOT OF TEAMS HAVE ENDED UP IN BANKRUPTCY. ASK THE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS BEFORE BUYING IT.

In the 3rd division it is easy to make a big profit on stores, the difference in competition between 3rd div. and 2nd div. is huge.

Agreed.  I wish I had figured that out sooner but that's okay.

I must say I like the CFF warning a lot ; opening foreign stores can be a money trap for unexperienced managers.

I advice beginners that it is ok to open a store in their own country, but ask my advice before opening foreign stores.
Without my advice, do not open it. An unexperienced manager cannot estimate if those stores will be profitable and the end of the season.
Besides this, 150k is a big investment for a starting manager. With that same 150k, it is better to invest in point-scoring cyclists first.
But halfway the season is a good moment to check if a beginner can make 1 million (or even a few millions) netto profit on stores.

For you, Kekipi, and other experienced managers who have a youth team ;
if they end up in the 3rd division (many of them relegate asap on purpose to the 3rd div./more profit ), they cannot open foreign stores.
Only if they have one or a few (old) point-scoring cyclists aside.
To me it is smart to have 2 (or so) of such cyclists besides the youth team. They will score much price- and points-money in the 3rd division.
Having more money is also a good future investment.
And of course, that for example old tour cyclist will have a foreign store to make extra netto profit.
But the real big profit is in the price- and points money he scores.

And even for the 3rd div. teams with only a youth team ánd with promotion ambition ;
they can check halfway the season if a foreign store is profitable.
Especially when they expect that foreign store will be profitable in the next 2nd div. season too.

[Vos]

Now I'm thinking of embarking on training up some riders for my national team (USA!).    I currently have a solid 23-yo cobble-hiller, Julian Finn, who's my first 10-star (cobbles), gold icon rider I've trained from "birth".   Exciting for me!

I may still stay on the cobble-hills training track but am considering others, perhaps cobbles or cobble-sprint.  Any advice?

At the moment Julian Finn is the nr91 in the golden cobble ranking and the 65th best cobblehills cyclist of the game.
That looks very good, because I expect he will gain many more places despite he has just 12 fast trainings left. (and the oldies will drop)
And the final fast trainings are very important to "fine-tune" him.
If I knew his stats, I could advice you about training to 24yo, but probably you know yourself the best how to train him now.
There are just 12 fast trainings left, so despite it still is very important, the impact on how he will look is just little with so few trainings.
It looks very good for the cobblehills future of the USA, two young (23yo, 24yo) Americans are even higher ranked as Julian Finn.

About training after his 24th birthday, I have no advice and no experience in that.
I see a 24yo as "fully trained", although the reality is that he can improve a little more.
More than a year ago an experienced manager wrote me he calculated that a specialist can add a total of 2 GV points from 24 to 30yo,
when he trains perfectly and has a good talent rating.
Ok, 2 GV points is a lot, but it means just a very little progress per season.
And probably for a cobblehills specialist it is less than 2 GV points extra in his career, because he has 2 mainstats instead of one.
So he has to maintain 2 mainstats at his high level so now and then, besides training/improving a little bit on the other skills.
For example ; a tour cyclist will not get much better from 24 to 30yo, because he needs many stats to maintain at high level.

But this is just my opinion with limited knowledge about this subject, there is a chance my point of view is wrong or not entirely correct.
Probably there are more opinions about this subject, let's hope there will be more reactions to this interesting subject.

[Kekipi]

At the moment Julian Finn is the nr91 in the golden cobble ranking and the 65th best cobblehills cyclist of the game.
That looks very good, because I expect he will gain many more places despite he has just 12 fast trainings left. (and the oldies will drop)
And the final fast trainings are very important to "fine-tune" him. If I knew his stats, I could advice you about training to 24yo,

I appreciate the feedback.

Here are Finn's stats:

Age : 23   Wage : 817 Stamina : 80   Sprint : 17 Climbing : 32 Flat : 73 Cobblestone : 94  Technique : 70  Downhill : 73 Hills : 94 Aggressiveness : 79
Time Trial : 11   Teamwork : 16   Experience : 57   Talent level 4 (verified with card earned from World Challenge)

He's currently training downhill with specialist, so, according to my calcs,  he looks to get to 78DH (+5 from current 73) after completing the final fast 12 trainings.  And he will have an 83.8 GV for cobbles/hills.

Next season, the (tentative) plan is to train Tech.   If Finn is trained perfectly (with specialist) at age 24, he can get from 70 to 80 tech.   Season's end GV will be 84.8 (so gain of 1 GV).

BTW, for my generic cobble/hills GV calcs, I have been using ST12 FL4 CB33 TQ10 DH8  HL23 AG6 TW4.   Suggestions?

[Vos]

I will look at Finn much later today ( european time ).

Already this ; true, downhill and technique can use the training.
And maybe flat too, because that counts too in all cobblehills classic races.

To me it seems that your GV estimation is of a pure cobblehills race without a flat section and that finishes in a red cobblehills section.
Maybe I will reply on this too, although maybe of no use, because there are different cobblehills races and therefore different GV estimations.

[Kekipi]

At the moment Julian Finn is the nr91 in the golden cobble ranking and the 65th best cobblehills cyclist of the game.

That looks very good, because I expect he will gain many more places despite he has just 12 fast trainings left. (and the oldies will drop)

I counted 16 oldies (31 yos) cobblehills cyclists ahead of him in the rankings, so I anticipate he'll eventually end up in the top 50.

Interesting to note that I have another cyclist, also 23, who has a higher cobblehills GV than Finn but is not in the rankings because he has yet to achieve golden cobble.  I suspect when/if he does, he'll be ranked ahead of Finn, unless my GV calcs are off (likely) from the one used by the game to determine the ranking.   

Speaking of which, is there a standard or way of determining when "golden" is attained?   Are there clues from that spiderweb thing?   

[Aurora Australis]

Your cobb-hills cyclist not in the gold rankings won't suddenly leap ahead of your cyclist already in the rankings.  Your formula will be different to the formula calculated by the game to assign star / bronze-silver-gold ratings to, the order given on the game's table is based on its ratings system (which is one set of ratings for each cyclist type - not two).
Of course also note the game's gold ratings don't take into account experience, and being a more puritan rating may in some cases miss one or two minor skills that's useful in races of that type.

[Vos]

I have no knowledge about golden icons, the spiderweb, and other things like that.
I play this game mostly on fox-gut-feeling, that is much more relaxed than to try to calculate everything. Or maybe I'm just lazy.

About Julian Finn ; I have nothing more to add to what I already wrote about him. Hopefully other readers have better replies.
It seems to me your training plan is very good ; indeed, he needs more points on downhill and technique.
I like Finn a lot. His high talent rating is important, also after 24yo. And extra fun for you that he is recruited/scouted by yourself.
Maybe good to point out something that you did not mention, because that is a very nice extra what makes him much better in some races :
Julian Finn ( 23yo ) -->  2 weather icons ; a very nice extra ! 

[Kekipi]

I have no knowledge about golden icons, the spiderweb, and other things like that.

Okay, thanks.   Apparently, others have some kind of knowledge.  The manager of Orange, for example, has a 22-year-old rider (and also #1 on the U23 cobbles dream team), Karin Narshawov, https://cyclingforfun.org/cff/vision.php?ciclistaid=86551 who is projected to receive the silver hills icon at 22 years/race 82 when, as of this posting, we're at race 80.   So the Orange manager is either going on a gut feeling or he has got some kind of crystal ball for determining the bronze/silver/gold thing.  I guess I'll go ask.
 

I play this game mostly on fox-gut-feeling, that is much more relaxed than to try to calculate everything. Or maybe I'm just lazy.

Yes, I've gone with the gut-feeling approach and agree that it's much more relaxed.  And there's a lot positive to be said for that.    But I also get some enjoyment from being (very) analytical, which is current approach I'm on, so we'll see how that goes.

About Julian Finn... I like Finn a lot. His high talent rating is important, also after 24yo. And extra fun for you that he is recruited/scouted by yourself.

I am considering keeping Finn until I retire him (is there a way to retire a rider?).  I've never had a birth-to-retirement rider before, so he may be my first.

[Aurora Australis]

Okay, thanks.   Apparently, others have some kind of knowledge.  The manager of Orange, for example, has a 22-year-old rider (and also #1 on the U23 cobbles dream team), Karin Narshawov, https://cyclingforfun.org/cff/vision.php?ciclistaid=86551 who is projected to receive the silver hills icon at 22 years/race 82 when, as of this posting, we're at race 80.   So the Orange manager is either going on a gut feeling or he has got some kind of crystal ball for determining the bronze/silver/gold thing.  I guess I'll go ask.
 
I am considering keeping Finn until I retire him (is there a way to retire a rider?).  I've never had a birth-to-retirement rider before, so he may be my first.

There used to be a bronze-silver-gold calculator somewhere (either Dutch or Spanish), which I was too lazy to get.

To retire a cyclist, sack them after they've turned 30, that's considered retirement.

[Kekipi]

There used to be a bronze-silver-gold calculator somewhere (either Dutch or Spanish), which I was too lazy to get.

I'll go look for it.  Thanks.

To retire a cyclist, sack them after they've turned 30, that's considered retirement.

Thanks.